[MUD-Dev] 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad <olag@ifi.uio.no>]

"Richard A. Bartle" <richard at mud.co.uk> writes:
> On 22nd October, 2002, Ola Fosheim Grxstad wrote:

> It's the fact that daydreaming is like flow that means immersion
> isn't like flow. Flow, as I understand it, is final state - you
> can't be in a state of flow and from there experience yet a
> further level of flow. I may be wrong, and there could be some
> multi-level or multi-layered facets to it, in which case you could
> daydream while experiencing (other) flow.

I think you can have flow in various intensities and on multiple
levels. I view flow as a model of the process behind having a good
experience. The way I view flow it is a set of frames which you can
view the world through. It is an attempt to describe the underlying
processes of "good experience". For instance, you might control your
own existence by believing in God, thus endure the suffering on
earth through your beliefs in God and your praying. A person is then
"immersed" into a set of beliefs relating to how he controls his
destiny. His world looks quite different than the world of
nonbelievers. His life is a flow-like state. He may be pushed out of
that state, by starting to doubt his beliefs of course, but that
also means he is no longer immersed into the same perceived
world. He fell out of it. What he used to be doing no longer
matters.

> I think that you and I mean different things when we talk about
> immersion. We can argue as much as we like, but we're attaching
> the label to different concepts then we're never going to be
> reconciled on the subject.

What I am saying (or trying to say) is that in virtual worlds
flow/immersion are strongly related (and therefore immersion in the
virtual world is the same as flow) and I am putting forward the idea
that you cannot have (any significant degree of) immersion without
playing on the mechanisms of flow.

(well, maybe in the real world to, but that is not what we are
discussing).

> different meanings. I believe your understanding of what
> "immersion" labels is simply different to what I (and Dave Rickey)
> believe it to mean, so no matter what we say on the subject it's
> going to look wrong to you (and vice versa).

Well, yes, your and mine understanding is probably different,
because you talked about virtual identites and real identity
becoming one? Or was that wrong? I view them as separate, a
roleplayer would immerse himself into the world by temporarily
activating the virtual personality in a flow like fashion, pushing
out the other "real identity" of his mind. In a sense you take
control over your own mind by spending energy on giving up control
and strongly focus on what it is to BE "the valuesystem" which your
character consists of.

A regular player on the other hand would dress himself up in the
avatar, like putting on clothes, immersing himself into the world by
focusing on what he can do and see. Thus, pushing out what he can do
and see in the physical world that surrounds him. If he cannot fin
anything worth doing or looking at, he will not be
immersed. (i.e. something to capture his interest and focus) He does
not really have a virtual identity though. He has a real idenity,
which is given a virtual presence.  The roleplayer do have a virtual
identity. (this is getting complex)

Well, this is just hashed out in a few minutes, but might be enough
to either disagree or get close to some kind of agreement.

What I need in order to be convinced that I am wrong is a good
example of immersion into a virtual world where you cannot apply the
concept of flow. Daydreaming in a virtual world, would either be
immersed roleplaying or it would be daydreaming in the physical
world. If it is roleplay then it would be flow, but not really
dependent on the world but the values you attribute to your
character. A roleplayer is primarily striving to stay immersed into
his character and the world is just inspiration/tools/hooks for that
activity. The roleplayer would grasp for "stuff" which emphasis the
valuessystem of his character and play down "stuff" that is at odds
with it (like those annoying OOC people). The flow process is what
makes it possible to ignore all that stuff which is getting in the
way (like your keyboard, the neighbours playing music, OOC people,
designflaws etc). You focus on something which you believe you will
be able to control if you put mental resources into it.

If there is no challenge (stuff to pay attention to, stuff that
matters, stuff that captures your interest) in the world, then you
cannot have flow and immersion will start to fade... and you will
start to get annoyed over your neighbours etc.

--
Ola - http://folk.uio.no/olag/










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