[MUD-Dev] Shameless Plug.

[J C Lawrence]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:18:57 EST 
SavantKnowsAll  <SavantKnowsAll at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 2/18/01 8:42:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> claw at kanga.nu writes:

>> -- You state that you are implementing an RTS system along with a
>> typical MUD-like schem.  How so?

> Besides your typical MUD-like RPG game, there's the additional
> colonization phase.  Which is simulation of resource management,
> as well as RTS.  It's done in "god view" 3D, and is a bit separate
> from the game while remaining an integral part of it.  You gain
> access to your plot of land at 30 which begins turn based, and you
> begin to manage your resources, build property... expand your
> land.  Eventually, it moves away from Turn Based Simulation into
> Real Time Strategy when you begin to move forward into actual
> territory aquisition, etc.

Okay, is the area I control in the RTS actually of the game world,
or are the two chinese walled?  Can I go visit my cottage and
factories as a MUD player, or do they exist in some parallel and
inaccessable universe?

>> -- Which model of consensual PvP?

> The initial designs intended for open PvP after level 30, but soon
> after being hired, I shot that down.  

Why?

> Instead, you have "Deathmatches." which instead of your usual 1on1
> duels can go up to 6 vs. 6, and give you points for an in-game
> Ranking and Ladder system.  

Why only two sided?  What about changing sides mid-fight?  Going
independant?  Is this in a restricted arena, or in the game world
proper?  Can non-combatant players interfere?

> Beyond that you have Guild Wars, where also instead of just one
> guild going to war against another, they can place a booty prize
> inside safety boxes for the winners.  Also, in the colonization
> phase, and this is somewhat unconsensual, is when you get real
> strategic human skill PvP.  We will also have full PK servers
> where we stick the original plot, which include all of the above,
> plus open PvP beyond level 30.

What about all the ways of indirect PK?  (The normal examples are
leading a band of newbies up against Tiamat, or charming an aggro
NPC and releasing him in a newbie area/town, but the permutations
are near infinite)

>> -- What sorts of political and legal systems?  How enforced?  Hot
>> player defined and manipulable?

> On the PK servers, you can place a bounty on grief PKers - that is
> the extent of the legal system.  

So therefore a guild not able to declare laws for their member's
behaviour, is not able to enforce those laws, is not able to detect
infractions etc.  Or, to re-phrase, a guild is basically a
super-annuated coffe klatch.

> Politics is all player done, in they need to play their politics
> well with friends and allies in order to expand their kingdom --
> become the Emporer of the server, if they so wish.

So you don't actually implement any in-game political systems,
structures, or tools and instead assume that in-game players will
restrict themselves to chasing the cheese?

>> -- You are defining only the single goal of XP?  What's your
>> deflative force?  What about the the Stamp Collector?

> I don't think I quite understand the question.  The game's about
> killing monsters, gaining levels, collecting and making equipment,
> and accumulating more turns to advance your empire.

How do you lose levels?  What is to prevent Old MUD Syndrome (a
variation on political calcification, Old Boys Clubs, and entrenched
peerage).

What about those who have a different set of puposes for or interest
in your game?  What happens if a statistically significant
percentage player block doesn't want to just run about and bash
monsters, but instead wants to stage and participate in various
reformation plays within your towns (or just collect stamps)?

>> -- You have item decay.  What about player aging?

> Players will age, but there is currently nothing that aging does
> but tell you what age you are.

ie Power only acrrues, leading to entrenchment and inflation,
especially given that the game is linear and single-purposed.

>> -- You infer various economic systems.  Faucet/drain?

> Gaining equipment will not be your typical "monster drops item."

ie a faucet.

> You will find the equipment from kills, yes, but you'll then need
> to find additional resources to "upgrade" that equipment.  Each
> item has 3 variations for the first level of upgrade, and 6 for
> the second.  

Drains.

> Also, the economic structure comes from how well you manage your
> resources in colonization.  You don't have "trade skills" per se,
> but manage your factories and such well, and you can actually
> /produce/ equipment.  A healthy trade economy with different
> avenues.

Which depending on how it actually intersects the base game would
seem either a massive faucet, or the equivalent of providing chess
boards to MUD players (very popular in LambdaMOO BTW).

>> -- Loosely, death has little to no effect.  What prevents run
>> away inflation via hording and monty haul?

> Item decay?

That handles part of Monty Haul (I presume money tokens will decay
as well?), but it doesn't approach the inflationary problems of
infinite aquisition of power by players.

>> - So, I can run a character up to level 30 via a series of 'bot
>> scripts, and then spend the rest of my time building my colony up
>> until the point that:

> You really can't script when spawns aren't static.

Sure you can.  Just go have a look at the long history of text
MUDs.  

>> a) I can buy, for cash, any level character I want.

> I suppose.

>> b) I can squeeze out or control every other land-owner in the
>> game

> Not really, again this boils down to political warfare between
> players.  It won't be as simple as you think, as it takes a lot of
> thinking to ally with the right people before jumping down the
> thoats of others.

I control 80% of the resources, and am sucessfully monopolising
them.  I convert my holdings to military production and then
approach the remaining 20% with a simple ultimatum:

  You will either cede all your properties to me now or I will:

    a) Wipe you off the face of the planet

  and

    b) Buy myself a couple level 500 warriors and dedicate them to
    making your game-playing lives miserable.

You seem to assume that competitive forces will handle the monopoly
cases where there are no changes in base economic structures, and
where there the ties from the RTS to the MUD are implicitly one
directional.

>> c) I force new land-owners to surrender their new lands to me.

> There are mechanics in place to avoid newbie land-owner abuse.
  
Such as?  How about I simply surround them, strangle their growth
opportunities, and then poach them when they are old enough to be
fair game?

>> -- What prevents the creation and maintenance of monopolies?

> Nothing.  To defeat a monopoly you have to play you cards right
> and build your own.

Think about it -- that's not actually an answer.

>> -- As I don't play Windows platform games (I don't/won't run
>> Windows on any of my systems), its not clear I'll have much more
>> to say.

> That's unfortunate.  

Actually I find it one of my smarter decisions.

> Windows isn't all bad...

Neither is leprosy.  Somehow I don't seem want much to do with
either.

> ...especially if you're a gamer. :)

That would seem to depend on the games one wishes to play, and of
course, what one is willing to have to pay for them (eg running
Windows).

>> The main observation is that you don't actually comment about the
>> game design beyond the arm waving and glorious adjective stage,
>> which is fair, but is also difficult to comment on.  The devil is
>> in the details -- we all know where the mountains are.

> I think we've stated enough for an initial website -- There's only
> so much you can tell people before they'll get bored by being
> bombarded with information.

This list is a slightly different audience.

--
J C Lawrence                                       claw at kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--
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