[MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)

[coder at ibm.net]

On 02/11/97 at 10:57 AM, Sauron <dlove at kusd.kusd.edu> said:

>> I don't know about coding things but it can't be so hard to have a
>> realistic way to arrest people. It happens all the time of course? You just 
>> need some way for your police to restrain people. Things like shackles and 
>> handcuffs?

>coding is how you program the game to do whatever you want to do. i
>really think it would be very inefficient to have to have a guard hold
>and restrain a person, apply handcuffs and take them away. 

<Do we really need the e e cummings bit?>

It would however add character and provide for all sorts of other scenario
extensions and manipulations to take hold, such as wrestling away from the
guards, using the fact that you are being accosted by the guards to
overpower them (perhaps with outside help) and wrest from them various
guard-unique objtects. capture of guards for ransome, poisoning or
infection of guards to incapacitate the guard population, etc.

>my belief is
>that have the guards be set a high lvl (assuming that you are using
>levels), have them fight using the ic combat system (so that you can
>possibly defeat one, but not a whole mob), have some way to restrain the
>mage from escaping during this combat (ie hold person or have them
>"surrounded"), and when they "die", instead of being killed are
>teleported to the dungeon w/ and explanation like "the guards beat you
>until you fall unconscious. you awake alone in a dungeon cell." what
>actually happened can easily be inferred.

This would prevent interception of the guards carrying the trussed body
back to the jailhouse, which would in turn prevent a player from knocking
off one of the guards and replacing him, in disguise, as a method of
infiltrating the guardhouse, just to pick specifics.

>> >   Mages present an especially problimatic scenario, as
>> > they have the option of teleporting beyond the reach of the law...
>> 
>> Why? If the police employs mages they have the same option. Or they can
>> prevent the gate from opening, or from closing behind the mage. There's
>> any number of things you can do to solve this I would think?

>but then you're being hypocritical and really endangering the suspension
>of disbelief. it becomes unreal (in the sense that realism is unto the
>game itself) because you've outlawed mages in a city, but here you are
>using other mages to keep them out.

Sure, its absolutely consistant.  The city hires mages to ensure that no
other mages practice within city limits.  This is exaclty what the police
can be argued to be doing:  They act as enforcers for the city, exacting
protection money in the form of taxes from the population, and ensuring
that no other competing agency attempts to set up its own protection
racket there.  There's no model conflict or inconsistancy at all.

>> > The solution, of course, is to demand that my players remained connected
>> > 24-7..maybe take stats away from them for time spent in RL...(cackle).
>> 
>> Why not put a criminal on the wanted list if they run off this way. Then
>> they must disguise themselves on return or risk being recognised and ar-
>> rested next time they connect?

>this is somewhat feasible, though of course the guards would already know
>that Bubba is an outlaw, but you have to find some way to get players to 
>risk their lives to capture him. a high reward works sometimes, but not
>always, especially w/ players not interested in money.

Rewards can take many forms. from money to prized objects, social
advancement, status, reputation, stat adjustments, karma, religious/diety
favours, quest solution points, secrets revealed, controlled information,
power, investment in authority positions, etc.  As Caliban would
undoubtedly counter, the social rewards can often greater motivators than
the GoP toys I favour.

>> > More realistically, just force _characters_ to remain in-game even while
>> > the players are away...It becomes difficult to balance on a PK mud, but
>> > managible if you allow players to create scripts and defences to use in
>> > place of human input.
>> 
>> That's a possibility also even though it would make it impossible for
>> somebody like me to play your game.

>why? seriously you either place your character in a "safe room" where
>they cant be attacked (if the game allows such rooms) or you leave your
>connection active (their are numerous programs out there that will
>reconnect for you if you get dumped) and it is not very hard to program a
>simple script that will run when attacked or respond by saying run a
>room, hide, when X enters, attack X, run, etc.

I handle this by allowing free user programming.  Thus a player can
re-program their character to react and handle itself in any case that
they can think of.  There is no client support either required or
supported currently.  Such autoamtion is also intended to be a mjor source
of trade and contest between characters.

>> Of course nothing would prevent the patrol guards to send for a mage or
>> two to disable your magical defenses.  If the city allows such defenses
>> in town in the first place. Or the mage would place a magical dome over
>> your house that prevents you from leaving?

>again the problem of employing mages being hypocritical.

Mercenaries, special forces, mage swat teams, bounty hunters.

>see usenet thread.

Writing as list owner:

  Many of the list members do not read Usenet due to the high noise level, 
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  Its worth noting that moving threads and discussions here historically
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  Rather than reference a posting on a newsgroup, repost the subject
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No longer writing as list owner.

  In this line, I view the r.g.m.* group's only real use as a seed bed for
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>> This is always true when dealing with a mage.  But it is questionable
>> if the magic should be instantaneous.  That is how it works now but I
>> guess it would not be that hard to have powerfull or difficult spells
>> take time to be casted. Just make them a succession of lesser spells,
>> as has been suggested before (I believe with casting fireballs).

>it would probably be easier to code a delay based on spellcasting stats
>(whatever they may be) vs. the difficulty of the spell. so you cast, wait
>X, game checks to make sure you are still unoccupied, cast spell.

You might want to look into Bartle's Waving Hands, and Mage 2 Mage, both
posted here previously.  As has been brifly discussed here, there is a lot
of value to be found in creating an algebra of magic, so that magic users
can than manipulate and extend that algebra in creating their spells, or
spell extensions and conglomerations.

Creating a magic algebran int his manner has an additional side benefit in
that balancing the game with regard to magic is much simpler.  You know
what the costs and difficulties of magic are, they (should) form a single
consistant whole.  As such, its then merely a matter of balancing that
single system against the game to have the entirety of magic balanced
against the game, rather than adding a new inconsistant spell and
attempting to divine its balance effects on the entire game.

--
J C Lawrence                               Internet: claw at null.net
----------(*)                              Internet: coder at ibm.net
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...